Enlighten Us: The Rise and Fall of James Arthur Ray

[00:00:31] Profesor is out yet again. Loser. Loser. We're not important. Loser. He's got a real job. What is that about? Words. Whatever. Words. And then I'm Daphne. Oh man, part-time Ewok, full-time turkey ninja. Turkey ninja? Want the turkey noise?

[00:01:00] There you go. Turkey Ninja. Turkey Ninja. Oh, if you don't know what that song says, it's the turkeys here. It's a great Spanish song. Anyways, welcome to the show. I'm sorry if this is the first episode you're listening to. Apologies. I'm not sorry. You're not sorry. Never. Okay. All right.

[00:01:26] Today we are going to discuss a documentary that is sure to make Wilson angry all over again. Oh. He loves self-help. Oh my gosh. I don't know where I would be. Which one do you love more, conspiracy theory stuff or self-help stuff? Ah, both are really dumb. How so? Like really dumb. Like, oh God.

[00:01:53] Well, conspiracy theories is basically just guessing and coming up with random crap that might or might not make sense. And it's tethered very lightly together. Okay. So it's mainly like your imagination is just duct taping shit together. You know, it's like, oh, I want to, you know, I think the world governments are cloning together to make the sky gray. Meh. You're a fucking idiot. I'm sorry. You're dumb. You should walk into the ocean and say goodbye to all your relatives.

[00:02:24] People like that should not populate. Not nice. Not nice. Okay. And self-help? Huh? And self-help? Oh, they're worse. Oh God. They're worse. They dispense their bullshit onto other people. They, they, they, they're like a plague. And charge for it. They are the equivalent of like the guy that goes into the office knowing he's sick and sneezing in the elevator. That's what these people are. They get everybody else sick. Tell me how you really feel. They are garbage. Okay. Or I'm sorry.

[00:02:54] I need to say it with an accent. Garbage. Okay. So we're going to talk about the documentary called enlighten us. Oh, I'm enlightened. You're enlightened. I am. You're enlightened to the BS. I, I know. I woke up and I was like, how is shiny teeth going to tell me how to live my life? Like really shiny, like good grief. Grief. That's what you remember from the documentary. Every, every self-help guru has the shiniest teeth.

[00:03:23] Every one of them. Like you will get blinded if you're in the front row. Wear sunglasses. If you're going to go to some of these things. I was not aware. Oh yeah. I mean, look at all these self-help guys and look at their teeth. It's ridiculous. There is some dental work that has been done and it is nice. It is. I mean, those are some veneers. If I ever saw some. Well, there you go. Yay for veneers. One point. I don't know. Minus 10.

[00:03:53] Now it's ruined because if I ever get veneers, I'm going to, I'm going to have to go in to just do self-help. I'm going to have to get a suit and tie and tell people positive. Your, your no, not necessarily positive. He was kind of the guy in this documentary was kind of mean to some people. Yeah. But it was in a loving way. I don't know. Sometimes. I don't think it was in a loving way. It was in a controlling way and kind of like trying to grab at their wallets, but that's

[00:04:23] besides the point we haven't gotten there yet. So it's a documentary lighten us about what's the guy's name? Evil turkeys. Evil turkeys. James Arthur Ray. Correct. James Arthur Ray. Yes. And if you don't know who this man is, he, he got pretty popular. What was it? Beginning of 2000. 2000. Yeah.

[00:04:51] It was like around the early two thousands. Cause you could definitely tell what all the suits that they were wearing. It was very 2000 ish. You know? I mean, he was tied to the self-help book. The secret. The secret. I don't, he wasn't the author, right? He was just living the quote unquote secret. No, I think it was, I think it was the author. Oh. I'm like 99% sure he was the author. I know he was in the film, the secret, the film they did. Oh my God. That was a film. Yeah.

[00:05:21] They mentioned it in there and that's how he like, they, they called some people from the film and they went on Oprah and Oprah's to blame too. That's right. Okay. Yeah. Evil. Evil. I tell you. But for some reason is he. Yeah. I looked it up by Rhonda Byrne. Rhonda Byrne was the author. That's she's credited as the author. So I don't know. I'm not. I could have sworn the name was on the book. No.

[00:05:51] Cause I remember reading the cover on the document. I was like, his name's not on the cover. That's weird. So I didn't really look up how he is related to the book, but Oprah called him a, the seek, one of the secret teachers. Okay. One of these secret teachers. So I guess, but I remember seeing that book everywhere. Oh, it was everywhere. Um, I remember a coworker of mine gave me a copy. I read two pages of it and I thought it was BS and never read anymore.

[00:06:22] When the book touched her hand that it, that it caused burn marks. Did not. It just, uh, it was just, uh, it's felt quite silly to me in a way because you're expecting like this grand, like secret or whatever. And basically within the first pages was like, if you want to do something, do it. Okay. Cool. That's what I'm doing. Cool. It was like 400 more pages. Well, it wasn't even a very wordy book.

[00:06:51] It was like big print. And it was just, I don't know what the, the copy that I had, I was just like less than impressed. I was like, I don't understand what the big deal about this book is. So what you're saying is you could probably sum this up in like a flyer. Pretty much. This could have been an email. This could have been an email. What was your experience with the secret craze? Uh, mine was, I was, I think I was working at like, I was working at a retail establishment

[00:07:20] that I will not give any kind of promotion to. And I remember walking by the electronics counter and though they had like the whole book section over there and I'm like words, terrible reading. I'll wait for the movie to come out. I was like, no, nay. I say nay. And then I was like, maybe I should look at it. And then I went on my lunch break. That was it.

[00:07:50] That was it. That's as far as that went. So from what I understand, the secret was originally a movie and he was part of the movie. And then, uh, Robin or Rhonda Byrne wrote the book as a companion piece to the. Oh, there you go. Okay. That makes a lot more sense. I don't feel like they really explained that super well, but I also feel that they expect the people who watch this film to know more about him. And since I was of the mind of this book sounds stupid and I never read it or looked into it.

[00:08:19] I didn't see the, the actual, the secret movie. Did you? No. Why did I even ask? Why did I even ask? That was the dumbest question. First of all, I got better things to do. I got many things. And many things. Second of all, I don't know how to read. So the book is out. Uh, you only read menus just like me. No, I, I, that's why I asked. That's why I point the stuff. You point at the. I don't actually read it.

[00:08:46] Oh, words to other people that are waiting on me. No. That's terrible. Oh God. No. It burns. That's why we go to Denny. Sell the pictures. I know. Waffle house, all the pictures. That's why I pick stuff that has pictures on it. I don't pick the other stuff that has words. Oh, who are these people? You know what?

[00:09:11] If you're going to a food place and it doesn't have a picture of the food next to it, you know what that means? What? It means that that platter is not that important. They did not put a picture to that name. So therefore I will not select that. And I at least want to know what I'm anticipating when it gets dropped in front of me. I want to know that that picture is going to be in front of me. Me, fi, fo, fum. I want what's in this picture, son. Yes. Exactly. Uh huh.

[00:09:39] I want it to go into my magical gullet. So yay to me. And my picturesqueness. So no wonder you never read the secret book. Reading. Reading. No pictures. There wasn't a picture of the secret. I mean, if there's a coloring book, I'll go to town. Secret coloring book. Words. Enlightenment. So the secret craze happens.

[00:10:08] A bunch of teachers go on to Oprah. And the one thing that James Arthur Ray has is that he has charisma in front of the camera. He likes being in front of the camera. He's very charming, I guess, to people. And Oprah, you know, originally asked a few people from the secret to come on. Mm hmm. And immediately afterwards, she loved James so much. She invited him on as a repeat, you know, to come back and talk. Why? Because he was very charming. Ugh.

[00:10:39] That's how they get you. And I feel that's what's really pushed his. So shiny teeth. The shiny teeth to the top. Mm hmm. And while he didn't write the companion book, the secret, he has written multiple books and sold them. Mm hmm. So after being involved in the secret, that kind of grew his brand and he ran with it. Like at one point it was millions of dollars he was making. Oh yeah.

[00:11:04] And like the, the, the productions that he was putting on were like, like half a mil per production. So every time he would fill up a room and it made sure he was getting that money. Yeah. It kills me because he's self-help people when they start talking about making money, like the self-help money people, because there's different self-help. Mm hmm. There's self-help where it's like, you know, get healthier. There's self-help that's like, you know, feel better about yourself. And there's self-help, like get the money. Like I do those kill me. Like, you know, become rich like me.

[00:11:33] I'm like, you didn't, you weren't rich before you started this. Yeah. You got rich by telling people you were rich and charging them to ask you how you got rich. But the real secret is you got rich by charging them. Yes. That was it. No, the secret is, is pyramid scheme. Now they, you can turn around and ask people for money and you'll tell them the secret to go charge more people. The thing is you have to be rich, adjacent, rich, adjacent.

[00:12:03] Yes. Explain. Yeah. So you have to be the money and the people are over here and then you're over here. You have to find a way to merge them. So you're rich adjacent. See, that's, I mean, the money will get to you. Will it? Well, it depends on how much bullshit flies out of your mouth. If it makes them feel good. Well, if your teeth are shiny and you're, you're letting the bullshit fly, then, then do you get the money?

[00:12:33] I mean, I think so. You think so? I think so. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts. Dollars to donuts. Oh, donuts. We should have gotten Krispy Kreme. Yeah. Donuts. Yeah. Oh, aside, we just got back from eating. Oh yeah. That was good too. It was good. Yay. Now I'm thinking about donuts. Now I want donuts. We might have to make another trip. Jeez.

[00:13:02] Uh, no, I just, he puts on a very good persona. Persona. And, um, judging from how the documentary shows his out of, like out of stage persona versus his on stage persona. I find it hard to separate the two. It was very difficult. It's like he plays that act 24 seven and it was annoying.

[00:13:31] There was no break. That's just, I guess that's just him. He's that full of himself. It's weird. You know what? And there's, there's a couple of people in my life that, uh, shall remain nameless because I will not give them any kind of promotion. Uh, or I know them maybe. Oh, they're whopping assholes. Was it just like Ellie in the morning, write it on a piece of paper and slide it over. They are.

[00:14:00] Um, they like, okay. They are the equivalent of like a great white shark. Like they come towards you. They have a presence, but there's nothing behind those eyes. Yeah. Like they'll talk to you. They'll do shiny things and grab your attention and yada, yada, yada. But there's nothing else behind that.

[00:14:26] It's like somebody has hollowed the rest of them out and it's just a face and a body and the mouth is talking, but there's nothing behind those eyes. Like there's nothing that establishes an emotional connection. An honest. Besides the surface. Yeah. You know, that's why when he was talking to certain people, it was very surface. You know, like they tried to go into about like things that happen in their lives. And he's like, Oh yeah, that's cool. Okay. Sign signature. Yeah. That's cool.

[00:14:55] Give me your money or come to the next session. Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. Like when ABC or was it ABC always be selling. Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. Like there was nothing behind those eyes. So that's the thing that kind of got me was like, there's a smile. There's a hint of this. There's a hint of that yada, yada, yada, but let's keep the ball rolling and let's keep things moving. Nobody get a good, good look. And then we're out of here. You know, I'm packing up my stuff and we're out the door onto the next thing.

[00:15:23] And I'm like, when you're dealing with self help with actually helping people, you have to like get invested. But the problem is it's a very costly emotional process for the both of you, for the person dispensing the knowledge and the person receiving the knowledge. Yeah. You have to be able to have that cost.

[00:15:48] You're going to have to pay a price, you know, whether it's financially or emotionally, you know, whatever. Like when he was talking to that one guy about like the finances from his mother and all this other stuff. And he started balling and everything else. Yeah. There was nothing on his end. Oh yeah. No, he was just like, he looked like he just wanted to get it over with. And that's what I'm saying. Like, okay. I lied. There was one point he sort of broke and we saw what an a hole he really is was near the end. And we'll get to that.

[00:16:17] We'll get to that when he's whining. We'll get to that floppy penis syndrome. But anyway, so he's become a huge self-help dude. He's charging thousands of dollars for meetups. He's got the conventions. He's built like a whole, like, it seemed to me almost cultish because there were different levels that you had to pay to get up. You know, like you're at level one and there's level two.

[00:16:47] There was like seven. There was like whole pyramid. There was literally a pyramid. Yeah. So I'm like, like there was like a membership and then diamond status. Ultra diamond and triple diamond. Platinum diamond. Diamond diamond. Platinum, platinum, platinum diamond diamond and an ultra metal flim flam diamond. But you know, didn't someone say they were spending like more than a hundred grand a year? Yeah. To go to these things? To be a part of that membership.

[00:17:16] Him and his wife. Yeah. That's ridiculous. I don't make enough. I don't make that amount of money in a year. No. I'm saying if this is a cult, I am too broke to be in a cult. I can do it. Say that again. I am too broke to be in a cult. I can't afford it. That should be our shirt, a shirt for our show. I am too broke. To be in a cult. To be in a cult. Yeah. They're going to be like, oh, well you missed your membership fee. I'm like, I don't know. What membership fee? McDonald's.

[00:17:46] That's who's getting my money. Like give me some Mickey D's and supersize that shit. And I'll see you guys at the bottom tier. Supersize diamond McDonald's. Exactly. Exactly. I get the super salty. Mick, the McDiamond golden fries right here. And I will meet you guys at the bottom tier of that pyramid. Not even outside in the parking lot. Can't afford to be in that shit. No way in hell. $10,000 a month.

[00:18:16] Shit. Oh, If I made $10,000 a month, I wouldn't need self-help. What the hell are you people doing? Truth. You make hundreds of thousands of dollars and then you're calling in for self-help? Get bent. Like, oh no, my life is so terrible. Well, you're able to acquire massive amounts of money, so get over it. Oh God. How about this? Buy a friend. There you go. I'm available. I know. Buy a friend. Shit, I'll show up at your house. I'll bring food.

[00:18:45] We'll bring Krispy Kreme. I know. Krispy Kreme. You bring donuts? Yeah. Fucking hell. I'll go over to, you know, Poncho Villa and get like a whole giant platter for you or something. Jesus. $100,000 and you're still talking about like, oh, I don't feel so good about myself. I'll go to, you know what? Go home. Quit your job. Allow other people that have been struggling for years and years and years to get that position. So then we can go ahead and rocket it and make all kinds of money and move up in the

[00:19:15] world. Meanwhile, you're like, oh no, I'm a CEO of a company and I'm unhappy. Boo hoo. Yeah. Nobody cares that you can't afford your fifth limo. You know what makes some people feel good? Giving back. So maybe give your employees a bonus. Yeah. A bonus. A bonus. A raise. Anything. Not a pizza party. Oh my God. More than a party or like a holiday party or a pizza party. You want to show your preaching appreciation.

[00:19:44] Giving me a sizable raise. I don't need a party. I don't want a pizza party. Take the, take the pizza, roll it up into a ball and insert it into your rectum. There's still hot. One place gave us teddy bears at the company logo. I'm like, how much money did you just spend? Yeah. Give me the damn money. Yeah. Give me the damn money. Put it on a check. Give me the damn money. Why do I need a teddy bear? Where am I going to put this? I still have that teddy bear.

[00:20:14] That's still income in my eyes. It's a paperweight. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Like, oh, it infuriates me. And I didn't even get one of the good teddy bears. Mine's kind of lopsided and not made well. And I was like, this poor teddy bear is all mismatched. That's fine. I'll take this one. You know what? It's, but it's something that's, that's your bonus. Yeah. That was my bonus. That's why I still own it. That's. I still have it because that was my bonus. That is ridiculous.

[00:20:49] And, and they have like all this, these nice jobs and everything else like that. And they're showing up to try to like move up to the next level. I'm like, you know what? Promote the people that are in your company. They will work better for you and they will make your company grow even bigger. How about that? How about, will that fill the giant hole in your heart that like your dad never hugged you or something? I'm sorry, but. I can have a dark side. If you want me to. Just. Jesus Christ.

[00:21:19] If you don't know that song, go look up Tim Mincham dark side. You're welcome. There you go. At the very end. He's like, daddy never came to my ball game. Daddy never came. I love that man. Yeah. That's the help self I need. Tim Mincham. You know, like something bad happened to you. I'm sorry. It's piano with a set of comedy. Like it's great. Yeah. But yeah, something bad happened to you. I'm sorry.

[00:21:47] You know, I wish things better things would happen to you, but don't take it out on the rest of us. Yeah. Please stop doing that. You know, like you had a bad life. That's great. Everybody else has had something bad happened to them also. You know, this isn't like a dick measuring competition. Like your bad thing isn't worse than my bad thing. Okay. Nobody cares. Everybody goes home at the end of the day. If you want to like help somebody out, give them a better paycheck. That's all you need to freaking do.

[00:22:15] I don't give a shit that you're feeling better at the end of the day. I give a shit about my paycheck going up or down. That's all I care about Monday through Friday, seven, you know, five days a week, you know, do my 40 hours a week and, and, and go through all the crap I need to get to you screwing my paycheck. That's it. Just pay people more.

[00:22:38] I can't tell you how much of an improvement moving from one pay a scale to another has completely changed how I interact with the world around me right now. I can believe it. I went the opposite direction and I am miserable. I'm saying you, if you make a jump. Yeah. And that jump is a drastic one. Yeah. It will change everything.

[00:23:07] For the good or better, depending on the direction. Yeah. Yeah. But as long as your head remains firmly out of your ass, you should be fine. Yeah. Like keep doing exactly what you've been doing before. So you're living at a lower level and you're bringing in a lot more stuff. You pay everything off, you get everything done. Like the stress level goes down, like pay people more. You do look very put together today. I am. Very chipper. I am. So chipper. You've been less grumpy. Cause I've been fed.

[00:23:37] Oh, that's true. I am fed now. I can, I can afford to be fed now. I'm not scrounging for, for French fries stuck in the couch seat, you know? And I am able to go from a small to medium drink to a large drink. Oh, look at you. I know. Straight balling. I was like, you know what? Super size it, buddy. Super size it. Yeah. Hell yeah.

[00:24:05] And I didn't need some self help guru to walk me through that fucking like obstacle course. What I needed was somebody just to pay me more. There you go. This isn't like rocket science, man. You know, you get up in the morning, you do what you need to do. You get to work on time. Yeah. If you have to leave early and fucking leave early. I don't give a shit about your kids, your dog, your hamster, your whatever.

[00:24:33] Get to fucking work early and then do your God damn job. That's all you have to do. Do your job and go home. This has been the real secret. Yeah. Wilson Rivera. There you go. I mean, when the boss looks at you and he knows that when he turns around and he looks at where you're supposed to be sitting and you're there when you're supposed to be there

[00:24:59] and the work is getting done, things are getting checked off and you go the hell home and he doesn't have to worry about you, then guess what? That's a good day for him too. So just do the damn job, get the work done. And hopefully one day you will be noticed when things start coming around. And if they're not crossed, man, if they're not, I mean, I, I am no, you sound optimistic. Now I just assume no one's going to see it.

[00:25:28] They're just going to take advantage until you go into the grave. But you know, I am, see, you're a, um, I guess a realist, um, um, self-help person. I'm the grumpy self-help person. I'm the one who's like, life's going to suck. So just eat a bagel and cream cheese. Oh, well, yeah, it's good. Life is going to suck. No matter what you do. There's always bagels with cream cheese. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is when you're turning that corner and there's some bullshit that's right around

[00:25:57] that corner, you know, it's right around that corner. Yeah, you do. But there's, there's two things you could do about it. You prepare for it. Yeah. Or you just wait for it to hit you. Yeah. But you know, it's coming around the corner. Yeah. It's like when, when I got promoted, I got promoted at work, but this isn't a time to celebrate. This is a time to stockpile. When you have things in your favor, you move like you have things in your favor. Don't like go crazy and start buying shit. You can't afford.

[00:26:27] Correct. Correct. This is when you stockpile shit and you get ready for that bad thing to come around the corner. Cause you know, it's gotta. Yeah. It's always around the corner. It's true. Yeah. Like you're going to have, I did the same thing when I was on my highs. Yeah. Stockpile, stockpile, stockpile. Now we're a little bit on the lows. It's fine. It's fine. But I stockpiled before. So I'm weathering the storm. Let's say this is the time. This is the time where, if you would like to help us share the program.

[00:26:57] Yeah, exactly. This is the time where the refrigerator goes out. The car gets a flat tire. The, you know, something happens. And then all of a sudden there's five, 600, a thousand dollars that comes flying out of your, out of your paycheck. So when you're hitting the high stockpile, when you're getting your lows, then you just lay low. The secret, the real secret with Wilson Rivera. Oh my God. See, I'm telling you, I'm going to be like one of those motivation. You're going to be one. You're working your way there.

[00:27:27] So I'm just going to call everybody idiots. Well, some of them do that already. So you're, you're in good company. I'm halfway there. I need shinier teeth. Well, now you have the money for that, right? Yeah, I guess. I'll get some veneers like an asshole. Yeah. I'd be like, hi guys. How you doing? Ha ha. Ha ha. Ha ha. I can hear the shiny now. Oh yeah. Like I, I glisten. How about that? Ding. Exactly.

[00:27:56] Every time you smile. Ding. Do I got a problem solving for you? Ha ha ha. Ha ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha. So should we wait until the, after the break to get into why this documentary happened? Eyebrows, eyebrows. Eyebrows, eyebrows. Yes. Eyebrows, eyebrows. Eyebrows, eyebrows. Eyebrows, eyebrows. All right. Let's put a little pause here. We've introduced the main dude. We'll come back and give you the whole reason.

[00:28:26] The whole reason. Because the documentary doesn't exist because, oh wow, he wrote a book or someone wrote a companion piece to a movie documentary he was in. That's, that's not why we have gathered here today, folks. What? What? I feel like I've been scammed. This was the whole reason for me coming here. I was supposed to get self-help from Daphne. From Cashin, Cashin and Rivera. Cashin, Cashin and Rivera. Well, today's just Cashin and Rivera.

[00:28:56] Boo. I paid good money. I only got one of the Cashins. The good Cashin's gone. I need it. I get a discount. I get a discount. I get like a 40% discount. The good Cashin's not here. Sorry. I'm only getting a third of my service. All right. We'll be back.

[00:29:19] And we are back. Once again, this is Get Docked. I'm here with Wilson. Yo! And I'm Daphne. And we're discussing, hey. What? Rude. So rude. Don't worry, I'll help you out of this. Self-help. I can self-help myself. Whoa! With a bagel and cream cheese, bro. Hey-oh!

[00:29:49] Hey-oh! Okay. We're discussing the documentary, Enlighten Us. Yes. We've given you a little bit of a prep. A taste. A taste of who James Arthur Ray was. A sous-son. A sous-son. A sous-son. And now, if you haven't seen the documentary, we're about to ruin it. Yeah. So what's the term when you ruin a plot twist?

[00:30:20] Plot twist. Be a dick. Be a dick. Be a dick. That's it. Alert. Yeah. Something alert. We're going to ruin it. Spoiler alert! That's it. Thank you. Spoiler alert. Thank you so much. Or just be a dick. Well, this podcast is about an a-hole right now, so. So yeah, spoiler alert. If you don't want it to be spoiled, go watch the documentary and come back. If you don't want it to be spoiled, why are you listening to us? I know, right?

[00:30:49] We spoil everything. But you do, okay, one, you do want to go see this because the interviews I think are worth watching. You get a real sense of who this guy actually is. If you want to be enraged. From the lack of emotion. Hands around that. The only emotion that he really shows is just annoyance and whining.

[00:31:15] But anyways, back to the reason this documentary, because otherwise there really, I don't think there would be a documentary if a tragedy hadn't happened under his watch. I mean, there might've been like one that he produced. Eh. You know what I mean? On his end. I think he was like B or C tier. Yeah. So like, I feel like his company at some point might have produced, like if nothing bad had happened, there might have been like a documentary at some point about him that he made about himself. Maybe.

[00:31:44] But in this case, we had tragedy struck. So he had many different tiers through his program. There were different events tied to each tier. And there's the, was it? Spiritual Warrior five day event. Mm-hmm. Which you're experiencing the heat and there's so much stress put upon you and, you know, in, in. What's the title again? Enlighten Us. No, I mean, no. For Spiritual Warrior. Yeah. So it makes it sound like it's a triathlon.

[00:32:14] It does. Like, like you're going to be, you're like running like 10 miles, do like 300 pushups, do swimming event. Well, no, but you're going to go like sit in the sweat lodge and you're going to have a vision quest and you're going to really dig deep down inside to find out who you really are so that you can succeed in life.

[00:32:31] So what you're saying is, if I get into a tent in the middle of Arizona in like 130 degree temperatures and basically like Dutch oven myself, then I'll be able to have a spiritual awakening? I guess, I guess that was the point. But unfortunately some people failed to have that spiritual awakening.

[00:32:58] So during this particular year, October of 2009, I think it was. Oh, October shouldn't have been that bad. No, but if you're in a tent and someone keeps putting the hot rocks into whatever the water, like whatever, I forget. Is that what it is? They put water on the hot rocks. The rocks go in the middle and then they put the water. Water on top. Yeah, that's what it is. They pour the water on it. It's like a sauna. Sauna. Sauna. A sweat lodge. That just sounds gross. Sweet lodge. That was my nickname in high school.

[00:33:28] So he's got this spiritual warrior event coming up. It sounded like he was trying to make a ton of money all at once. He skipped. Oh yeah. Remember he skipped a bunch of people. It was like, usually he makes people go through all the levels. So you have to spend a ton of money before you even get to the level where he allows you to spend more money. Are you even on that level? To get into the spiritual warrior event. Even spiritual warrior, bro.

[00:33:56] But he said like he was like losing money. I forget why. Or he needed more. Because his events were costing too much. Yeah. So these events were starting to get costly and he needed to make up the money. Yeah. You know, to keep the machine going. So at one event, he decides to open the doors and he's like, you may be level one and this is the only time I've done this. But you can skip to level 10. You know? That's just terrible. Whoa. That didn't raise any red flags. Correct.

[00:34:26] Yeah. It did not. Me, I was like, oh, that sounds great. Me being who I am, I would immediately question that. I'm like, okay. So if I can skip from level one to 10 and I don't need any of that work, what's really level 10? Is it another bunch of nothing that I'm not really going to need? Level 10 just becomes level two. Or that. He's just charging 20 times more for level two. Exactly.

[00:34:55] So I don't, I don't know, man. Like the whole thing. Well, you don't understand. You see, you've made so much progress in level one that you just go right to 10. You go right to 10. Right to 10. Yeah. It's like when you go to those mega churches and they're like, if you donate a thousand dollars, you go right into heaven. You know what? And they put a little plaque on the chair that you sit in up there. Guarantees you the seat. I got like no chairs. I am not going up there.

[00:35:25] I am automatically getting rerouted and it's going to smell like sulfur. Do you remember the show Dead Like Me? Yes. Where people in purgatory basically become reapers and walk the earth or something like that. Like the premise or something like that. That'll be me. No, for me. I'll have to work in the afterlife. For me. Somehow, some way. That's what awaits me. Like I can't wait to not work. And that's going to be my purpose in the afterlife probably is I'm going to be stuck working. For me, it's going to be your pretty face is going to hell. That's going to be eternity.

[00:35:54] I'm going to have an office job and it's going to be pure hell. For corporate health. Yeah, it's going to be corporate health. That's going to be. That is such a great show. That's my eternity. Such a great show. We might have to watch a couple episodes after this. I love that show. I love it. Oh my God. If you haven't seen it, it's on Comedy Central. Yeah. It's great. That's going to be my eternity. Yeah. Yeah. If you get offended easily, don't watch it. But where were we?

[00:36:24] Sweat Lodge. Sweat Lodge. Okay. Yeah. Sweaty Lodge. So they skipped a bunch of levels. All these people go to Sedona, including a couple people that have been there before. They've done it multiple times. Okay. Another question for you. Yes. If you've already done this. And it didn't work? Well, not that it didn't work, but if you were doing it. I mean, if you have to do it multiple times. You have to do it multiple times. That's what it says? No, I said, if you have to do it. I was going somewhere.

[00:36:53] If you have to do it multiple times and the first time didn't work, why would you go a second and a third time? Well, that, if you're part of a tier system and this is part of your tier system, wouldn't you not have to do this again since you've already done it? Well, yeah, that's what I mean. So like if I'm told, oh, you should do this again because it didn't work, I'm now thinking I'm going to be an even bigger failure. Why would I go back?

[00:37:18] So you're going $20,000 in because the first time, the first 10,000 didn't work because you're a loser. And then you go in as a second time, do another $10,000 to show up to this thing to sweat your guts out in the middle of nowhere. That sounds terrible. Sounds horrible. I can think of 9 million other things I'd rather be doing. You don't like it. I don't know.

[00:37:44] So like go see a therapist maybe. At least some of that's covered under your insurance if you have some insurance. You don't have to spend $10,000 in a sweat lodge smelling like feet for God knows how long because some guy doesn't think I'm, you know, moving up in levels. Special enough? Oh, I'm special. I'm special ed. So I don't want to get ahead of myself.

[00:38:09] But so I'm going to, because I was about to say one of the victims names. Okay. But a victim of this situation. Yes. This was her third time going? That is terrible. So. I mean, that's like $30,000. Not just $30,000. Well, is that just the trip itself? Yeah. She was probably in the diamond level and doing all the other stuff. Yeah.

[00:38:37] And if she's gone three times, that is at least three years she's been paying into this system. At least. If not more. If not more. For what? That's what I'm saying. Like all this. Because how long does it take to go from level one to whatever? You know what I mean? So she's conservatively had been going, paying into the system for three years. Yeah. Okay. So. Okay.

[00:39:07] You and me, we're going to sit there. We're going to go to this stupid self-help bullshit. Whatchamacallit. We get all wrapped up into it. But we do like one year. We go through all the ranks. That would never happen, but I'll explain why later. But go ahead. Entertain me for a second here. Yes. We go through all the little hibbity-bibbity, you know, pyramid steps and yada, yada, yada. We get to shiny teeth level.

[00:39:34] And then we pay the $10,000 and we do this stupid retreat in the middle of nowhere. You do the five days and then you pay your, you know, your $10,000 or whatever. Yeah. Or this trip, you sweat your balls off and smell like feet for the entire time. Gross. You go home and then you're told that, you know, you have to go do it again. You know what?

[00:39:57] If I spent all this time and all this money and went out there and did all that bullshit and I survived it all, why would I go back and do it again? The only thing I can think of is that the first time gave them such a sense of accomplishment and they feel they don't feel that in everyday life.

[00:40:26] That they are chasing that original feeling of euphoria, feeling like I've done something. Oh. Which in reality, they haven't done anything. They've been mentally manipulated. Yeah. But they don't see it that way because they're in it. But the thing that irritates me is this is part of a stepping system. Like you get past. They're indoctrinating you. Yeah. Like you get to one point. Wow. I got that whole word out without tripping it. I'm surprised. I know. I am surprised. There should be a drinking game.

[00:40:56] Well, nobody would ever get drunk. Oh, man. Nobody would ever get drunk if I pronounce all the words. The drinking game is every time I mispronounce something. Yeah, exactly. Try it again. You're like. I don't even want to. Go on. Go on with your thought. Okay. Anyway. So you go through the whole stepping program. You get to the highest tier, the highest level, the whatever. Yes. And then you finally get in there. You get out of the tent. And even if you don't have like this miraculous reawakening or whatever. Yeah.

[00:41:26] Why would you have to go through all the steps all over again to attain that? Do something different. If this setup, if this layout, if this program didn't do or didn't help you and you went through all of those steps and you got to the final thing and it still didn't solve your problem, do something else. Well, how about this?

[00:41:51] Because maybe what they cannot, maybe they keep going back because they can't handle the truth that it didn't do anything. Because let's say the first time you go, you get to the end, you feel accomplished. You've done the sweat lodge. They shaved your head. More on that later. You know? And like you've, you got this big breakthrough. You get the euphoria of I've done something. I feel so good. And then you go home to your normal life outside of those five days and you realize you're back

[00:42:21] to the same BS. Nothing has changed. And you have to prove it to yourself that you have. Maybe it's that having to prove yourself. No, something really did change. I'm going to go back and prove it. Do you think it's that? I mean, I understand that some people would feel that way, but that's a you problem. That's not a them problem. If they gave you certain steps to follow and to go through, then... No, that's not a problem for them. You're correct.

[00:42:50] That's money in the pocket. Yeah. Yeah. So they're happy about it. They're happy that you're returning because you got to go through the whole system again. If you go back to them and go, hey, I just, when I went back home and I just, you know, I thought something had changed and I realized something did it. He's just going to flip it around and say, well, you didn't reach down far enough. You have to go further. You have to come back next year. We'll do it again. But in that case, the problem, I mean, I understand what they're thinking. I understand what you're saying.

[00:43:20] But at that point, it is a problem of implementation. Implementation is not a problem of going back and redoing the steps that you've already done. Oh, yeah. If you think that those steps have equated to you doing something and you have accomplished something, if that's what you believe. I have a problem with what you just said because I don't think it's a problem implementation. Implementation.

[00:43:45] It is not a problem of implementation because I think it did exactly what James Arthur Ray wanted. He wants people to come back. But on her side. He doesn't want to fix anybody in reality. He wants to be known as the good guy. He wants that title of, you know, the healer or whatever, like helper, whatever you want to call him, guru. But he, in reality, doesn't want to fix anybody because he wants a rolling paycheck. Yeah.

[00:44:13] So it's not a problem of implementation because he's manipulated these people into needing him. And that's exactly what he wanted. But on her, on her perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Then all she had to do was implement those things that she learned. And I'm using bunny ears as quotation marks learned. If it's a process in her mind, elevated her to a new status, to a new ability that she

[00:44:43] has.

[00:44:55] If it's a process, then after the course is already run through, then all she would have word. Yeah. She's going to go to him and go, why? Why didn't it work? Why didn't it work? Why do I, why do I not feel good now? And he's going to go, you didn't reach down far enough. Come back. Show me the money.

[00:45:24] And now I'll give you the, the silver membership or the gold membership or the diamond, the platinum, the platinum double diamond. But that's what I'm saying. Like, oh, it's so frustrating. It worked exactly how he wanted it to work. How he wanted it to work. It didn't, you know, he's selling them some sort of weird dream. That's never going to end. Gross. It's just never going to end. There's no end in sight. He just wants the money. He wants the money.

[00:45:53] And I just want, he wants the money and he wants to be thought of as a good guy. That's it. At the end of the day, I want to be paid for people thinking I'm a good guy. That's it. Right? Yeah. It's terrible. So we go to the sweat lodge and what happens. So let's, let's the sweat lodge. It's just, they make this gigantic sweat lodge outside. Yeah. It's only like a couple feet tall and it's super duper wide.

[00:46:23] Super wide. How many people went in there? Did they say the exact number? Like 20 or 30 people. 20 or 30 people in a very, like it's a big sweat lodge, but I feel like not necessarily enough to fit 20 people comfortably. No. You're hearing stories that everybody's back to back touching each other. So, okay. Let me tell you if it is hot outside and I'm sweaty because after having COVID, like if it's like 90 degrees, like if it's 80 degrees, I start sweating.

[00:46:53] COVID messed with my system. I used to be able to lay in the sun before COVID and like be fine. Now I'm like little sun hits me and I'm like sweating. So if I'm sweating and my heart rate, tachycardia and all that jazz, it happens to me now. I don't want anybody touching me. I don't want anybody touching me. Who's dry much less somebody else who's sweaty. Oh God. Yeah. Sweat and sweat. Oh, no. Thank you.

[00:47:21] Tell you what slip and slide. Now from the descriptions of the quote unquote survivors, the followers, the members, whatever you want to call them, they were shoved in there. Well, they were told to get into the sweat lodge and they were sitting skin to skin pretty much, you know, side to side. Everyone's touching. Everybody's in there. You know, half of those guys didn't take a shower.

[00:47:49] Well, they've been out there for how was that day two or something? That's what I'm saying. They probably smell like feet. Day two. And this was after the, oh, we didn't even discuss like when they first get there day one, they shave everybody's head. Yeah. Not great. Imagine you've paid thousands of dollars to go on a spiritual warrior retreat. And the first thing they do is shave your head. They're already pushing their authority on you. They're already like pushing down those defenses you have. They're manipulating you.

[00:48:16] The problem is I have great hair and I don't want people to shave. Oh, I love my hair. I know. I, day one, they would have brought out the little, the, the, the shavers and I would have been like, I'm out. Peace out. I'm going home. Yeah. No, thank you. Appreciate it. Like, you know how long it took for me to get like this? I mean. So you're, you have a shaved head. Your defenses are slowly being broken down. There's already manipulating you. There's a clear authority. You smell like feet.

[00:48:46] I feel like you smell like feet, but you know, there's a clear authority. They've shaved your head. They've told you they're already bossing you around. They've shaved your head against your will in most cases. Cause I don't think anybody was like, well, maybe a couple of people, but you hear a couple of people who were like, I really didn't want to get my head shaved, but it was part of the program. So I did it. They're already imposing their will on you. Right. And now they're telling you get into the sweat lodge and, you know, back to back side to

[00:49:13] side, elbow to elbow with people sweat on sweat with your shaved heads. Gross. Okay. There's no light in there. It's darkness. They shut the little door that they made. And like, they even said that some people even started screaming because it was just so dark in there. Then they start pouring the water on the stones and we're not talking that they're in there for just 20 minutes and that's it. They're doing rounds of steam. Oh, didn't they say like seven rounds at some point? Like seven rounds.

[00:49:42] Like rounds of steam. How many people like just busted ass immediately? They got in a tent. Gross. Oh, like it's like 130 degrees in there. And somebody left. Yes. It dominates. Oh God. Oh, that'd be terrible. And they all smell like feet anyway. Have you ever been in a sauna that gets too hot? Yes. Like you can't breathe. No. And like your skin hurts. Yeah. I've been in one where it got too hot and I had to get out.

[00:50:11] The person in there with me like kept putting the water on the stone and I was just like, I can't, I can't handle it. I couldn't breathe. Like my chest was tight. My skin like felt like it was burning. And I was like, I'm out. Peace out. Like I was having a nice time until you came in. Yeah. Like that's it. Blow towards the place. You know? Well, that's what this guy was doing. He was more water, more water. And the steam is getting crazy. People started to complain. And what did he do? Did he say, okay, let's turn it down a bit notch.

[00:50:40] Let's, you know, let's try to push it. Push it. This is how you get your breakthrough. Push it to the limit. There's multiple rounds. At some point, there's a Julie who we spoke about earlier. She had been there multiple. This is her third time in the sweat lodge. You know, someone kind of lets James know, like she doesn't look great, man. Like she's not handling it great in his responses. We'll get her on the seven.

[00:51:12] Yeah. She's fine. This is her third time doing it. Yeah. She knows what she's doing. Yikes. You know, she knows what's up. It's fine. It's all good. She's got this. Yeah. You know, she's getting a breakthrough. The only breakthrough. Yeah. He's hoping a breakthrough to pay me more money later. Yeah. It's fine. Not a breakthrough to you're going to need a Ouija board to talk to her later. Correct. Yeah. So we have multiple people with concerns about, oh, people just aren't looking good.

[00:51:41] And he's just like, no, I'll just push it. Everybody's fine. If they don't do this, you're not going to get their breakthrough. Oh. Oh. And then at the end, what happens? Uh, not good stuff. Not good. We, at the end, um, they, they're finally allowed quote unquote loud because everybody wants to, the big argument here. Who was at fault? That's easy.

[00:52:04] You know, um, at the end of the day, three people died and what? 18 to 21, depending on the documentary and sources that you read, um, were injured, severely injured. Yeah. We're not talking like, oh, I sprained my finger sleeping. Like I did. We're talking like severely. I know. I don't. That's a severe injury. Don't downplay it. For me. You almost died. I almost died in my sleep. Almost died.

[00:52:34] But no, like severe injuries out of the sweat lodge. Yeah. You know, and who's at fault? And this is where the documentary upsets me and enrages me. It just makes everything a gray zone. Well, no, it's not that it's his response to what happened. So they go over immediately what happened after, um, someone calls the cops.

[00:53:02] Luckily, you know, and the cops go out there. The cops think this is a cult. I mean, well, I mean, it's not wrong. Only a step away from like having some Kool-Aid. You know, they, they tried to help the injured people. They obviously take others to the hospital. There's two dead on arrival. Yeah. Two dead on arrival. So Kirby Brown and James Shore dead on arrival. And then you have Julie who had been, or, uh, no, is it Julie? That was Julie.

[00:53:32] Maybe Lizbeth. I might've gotten her name wrong. Lizbeth. Okay. There's so many people. Yeah. There was a lot. Lizbeth. I think maybe then, um, was the one who died. Had been there multiple times and died, but she died a few days later in the hospital. Yeah. As a direct result of her injuries. Yeah. That's ridiculous. And what did, uh, would you like to enlighten us with, uh, what James did after he found out the cops had been called and people got injured? Oh, oh, oh, I got my hand raised.

[00:54:02] I got my hand raised. Uh, Bueller. Oh, oh, oh, over here. Bueller. Over here. Over here. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Rivera. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He ran away cause he was a fucking coward. Yeah. He didn't stay. He didn't ask to see how people were. He went to his room and took a shower. Yeah. Oh. And then was shocked when the cops knocked on his door and said that this incident was being investigated as a homicide. Yeah.

[00:54:29] After two people died in a sweaty tent, he went over there and took his clothes off and took a shower. Did he even stay long enough to know that they died? Oh, I doubt it. I guarantee you. He was like, okay, event over. Well, there's some people who seems like, ah, they're fine and probably went to the, to his room instead of checking. On his way to the room. He's probably like, yeah, oh, just walk it off. Go ahead. Yeah. And then that was the thing. Like everybody was gathered in whatever main room they had been told to gather and by

[00:54:58] the cops, you know, for interviews and to make sure that everybody's, everybody's getting a medical check down, you know, because this was really bad. Yeah. And he never once went over there. Nope. To see how everybody was doing. And if you want to argue whether or not he had, so this may or may not be correct to say like he had any, um, like it was his fault or not. He called his attorney immediately.

[00:55:27] So you're, you already knew it was his fault. But you see, that's where I get, cause I'm, I don't trust authority. If I was anywhere near in the vicinity where people died, I'd probably, I would call. So I don't want to say that he already knew he was in the wrong by calling his attorney. Cause if I'm in the vicinity of something, I might call the attorney, even though I had nothing to do with it.

[00:55:52] So I, I'm worried about saying that that was, you know, that's a reason that he looks guilty. Well, I understand. I get it. But, but, but we're talking about like a, like a big hefty, like pear shaped, but I think that

[00:56:21] if it's your retreat, you are a fault with your name on it, you are also responsible for the safety guards in place for the entire event. Yes. If you are holding a concert outside and you have the proper security and the proper food and the proper like porta potties and whatever, and everything goes great. That's awesome.

[00:56:45] But if you're lacking any one of those things, they're going to go to the guy who's the actual concert, like the actual vendor who's putting together the concert. If you're putting together a retreat and something terrible happens, that's part of the program that you have set aside and your safety guards fail. That doesn't mean that you're not responsible. That means you are responsible because the safety guards that were put in place did not work.

[00:57:15] What if there were no safety guards? Then he's still responsible. Yeah. Cause I feel like there were none, but there was like four or five guys outside that tent. None of them could use raise one of the parts of the tent and air the damn thing out. Like when people are like walking towards the door to try to get out of the tent, they're turning them away. Yeah. Don't encourage them to sit back down again. If they're going to get out, they need to get out. You know, game over your stupid program is going to kill people.

[00:57:42] Like you have to have some sort of responsibility for the things that you are doing. It's your tent. It's your money. You went to home Depot and bought a whole bunch of tents and stack them on top of each other and put a little steam pot in there. And it was expecting people to have a new age fucking moment in their lives. And you're basically incinerating people. And they're like, Oh no, people actually passed away. I'm going to go take a shower now.

[00:58:08] Like if you have to have responsibility for at least some of that. To say that I was mad is an understatement. Yeah. Cause like I can understand. So I, we get that he's going to bear responsibility and I think he bears more responsibility than that. Just that because he was actively turning people away. People, he was being warned multiple times. This person doesn't look good. I think this might be too much. I think some people need a break. No, no, they're fine. They're fine. Whatever.

[00:58:37] You know, that to me makes him even more guilty, you know? Um, and I've forgotten where I'm going. But I just, it enrages me that he just, here we, here we go. It enrages me that his reaction and how he handles his life forward.

[00:59:04] Just kind of, he pretends to take responsibility in my opinion. And I might be wrong, but he pretends to take responsibility while still whining that they were consenting adults. Yeah. Yes. They were consenting adults, but you have spent time. You developed exercises to break people down and then you're mad that they're broken down. They can't make a decision to leave a dangerous situation that you put them in. Yeah. That's your fault.

[00:59:33] You mentally broke down these people. Yeah. You mentally broke them down. They didn't, you know, you did that. Yeah. To the point that they can't make a decision to get out of a dangerous situation that you put them in. That to me makes you guilty. If you keep on telling somebody they are, uh, non flammable and you tell them every

[00:59:59] single day that they're non flammable and there's a building that's on fire and be like, look, you can go in there and save that person. Because you're non flammable. Exactly. And they go running into that building and they just immediately burst into fucking flames. You might be responsible for that. Just saying like, this isn't like some absurdity. You know, bullshit that you got to piece together with some hunches of whatever.

[01:00:25] He spent years telling these people that they need to push themselves and they need to do this and they need to do that. And they spent all their money and all their time. And I'm going to tell you how to do it. Don't listen to your inner voices. I'm going to tell you how to do it. I'm going to show you the way I'm going to show you how to break through. Yep. Don't listen to what your brain is telling you to do. Yeah. He's broken down these people. Yeah.

[01:00:50] And then you don't want the responsibility or the consequences of your decisions that you've told these people to do. Like, no, you are guilty. You're beyond guilty. There is. It's different if you put on an event, something happens. I put on an event. Someone comes in and hurts someone. And, but you had safeguards up. They broke it up. They didn't get there in time. Okay. You're going to bear some responsibility. Yes. But you didn't tell that person to come in and hurt the other person.

[01:01:20] Yeah. In this case, you have basically broken them down and you're telling them to hurt themselves. Yeah. You're culpable. That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't understand the idea of just shifting the blame. Like, well, they're grown adults. They should know better. Like, you spent years, like, just calming them into this person that you want them to be.

[01:01:46] And then you push them out into this situation. And then you're expecting that for them to act like they were before. You spent years turning this person into. Exactly. Grooming them. You turn them into somebody else. And then when they finally believe the bullshit and they're like, okay, I can handle this. I can handle this. I'm going to stick around for a little bit longer. You know, they push themselves to a limit that their bodies just couldn't handle.

[01:02:14] There's a responsibility there. There needed to be somebody or some buddies like in that tent with those people that pulled them out when there was an issue. You know, you're not like the whole breakthrough. Like, oh, you got to be like, you know, at the edge of life to experience this one moment. And it's going to change everything forever. Oh, fuck off. No. Pull that person out and they can try again some other time if they choose to.

[01:02:44] But like just sitting there and you're waiting for shit to happen. It should have been like, okay, a guy should have been outside with like a temperature meter. Yeah. Like, okay, if it hits a certain amount of temperature, we're cutting it off right then and there. That's that. We can't go any higher than this. And then there's a meter inside. There's a display outside. There should have been nurses. There should have been nurses. There should have been people with water. An ambulance. There should have been an ambulance on site. Yeah. Where was the ambulance? Nowhere. $10,000 a head.

[01:03:12] And there's not any other safety measures besides like some people outside of a tent scratching their ass. You know? Like I can understand if you're going to like a ball or like a meeting area in like a hotel, they give you the name badge. You know, you're going to go in there, listen to a speech, yada, yada, yada. You know, they're going back and forth with conversations. You go to the microphone.

[01:03:42] It's on your story. Oh, my God. Fine. Whatever. Whatever. But taking people out of their element and their bodies aren't conditioned to the stuff that you're going to put them through. And mentally breaking them down. And mentally breaking down even more to possibly injuring or killing people is negligence.

[01:04:02] No matter how you spin it, no matter what kind of bullshit, you know, thing you swirl around in your head, it doesn't change the fact that you're 100% responsible. If you put somebody in a dangerous position, you have to have safety guards in place. When you get on a roller coaster in an amusement park, there's like 20 safety guards to keep you in that seat. You have to go through the little height thing to make sure you're tall enough to even ride the ride.

[01:04:31] That's before you even step foot in the damn thing. You got the little thing you pull down. You got the seatbelt you put on. You go through all that crap and then even all the other additional safety things that are attached to that roller coaster. Eventually, things will break down and go wrong. That's just a matter of time. But there's maintenance. There's all this other stuff. There is still responsibility. And safety guards, yes. You have to test everything. Everything has to go through a checklist. There was no damn checklist.

[01:05:00] There should have been people there ready and ready to pull people out if things were getting too intense. He was basically cooking people. Yeah. You know, when a boxer is in the ring and they get like annihilated and the guy's looking at him, the ref is looking at him. If you don't make eye contact and you don't look like you're cognitive, they're going to throw in the towel. They're going to call the fight. They're not going to let you keep on fighting if you think you can still do it.

[01:05:29] If you can't have those safety guards in place where you're patting gloves, you're making eye contact, you're able to get back into the fight, they're going to call it. You're done. And there's more safety guards in a professional fight than there was with the sweat lodge. That's bullshit. That's bullshit. These people entrusted him to move across these barriers that they had in their life.

[01:05:58] And all he did was collect a paycheck and patted them on the head. That's just the responsibility level is just ridiculous. And the fact that later on, he used that after, you know, he went to prison. Oh, yeah.

[01:06:18] They went after him for only, so they went after him for only the three homicides because going after the people who had injured seemed like it might be a little too much work. They would have to prove each one and go jump through a bunch of hoops. So they picked the three most tragic endings to go after him because they thought those would stick better in court. Yeah. It's a numbers game at this point.

[01:06:44] And, you know, it's tricky to go after someone in this situation. They go over that in the documentary in great detail because they even speak to some of the cops. I highly recommend you watch it. But they do go after him. He goes to prison for how many years? Like two. Two years and he's out. They were going to try to get him for like nine. But he got knocked down at two.

[01:07:12] And even nine was nowhere close to what it should have been. Three people walked into that thing and didn't come back out. I mean, if you go and stab somebody on the subway, you're going to get like, what, 25 years or some shit? It's so ridiculous. It is ridiculous.

[01:07:43] And then there were at least, let's round to 20 because we're not really sure. Let's say 20-ish. 20-ish people that were severely injured. And we're not talking like they got a boo-boo and you put a Band-Aid on it. They were severely injured. I got it. We had organ failure. Multiple victims suffered acute renal kidney failure and liver failure due to extreme dehydration and toxic heat levels.

[01:08:10] There was also fluid in lungs. Doctors treated several participants with pulmonary edema, which severely restricted their breathing. Heat stroke. Many of them suffered heat stroke because their bodies exceeded the temperature of 105.

[01:08:34] So they tell you that a fever at 104 is super dangerous and get yourself to a hospital. The temperatures in these people's bodies exceeded the temperature of 105. That should have given you brain damage. Causing seizures and neurological distress. Like I said. There were also people who suffered chemical-induced chemical burns.

[01:09:01] The ground inside the lodge was soaked in vomit and sweat. Unconscious participants suffered chemical-like skin burns from lying in the acidic fluids. Stomach acid. And there were other types of severe injuries. You know, there's so many to list. But those are just some of the injuries that those 20-some people suffered.

[01:09:34] Yep. You know, so it wasn't just the deaths. No. But that should have been enough. That should have been more than enough. It should have been more than enough. So at the end of the two-year prison sentence, he does make it out. And I guess you want to take a break now and we'll come back and talk about his time out of prison. Oh, yeah. I'm ready. Because I need a break. Oh, hi. I'm mad. Oh. I'm mad all over again. Oh, no. Say it ain't so plucky.

[01:10:04] Say it ain't so. All right. We'll be back. We are back with the conclusion of this episode. We're going to talk about the ending of the documentary that makes us angry. Sad woo.

[01:10:34] I'm here with Wilson. I'm Daphne. Our third host is MIA at the moment. And we're talking about Enlighten Us. Boo, Daphne, boo. So James Arthur Wright. Shit bag. Who said that? James Arthur Ray. The guy from The Secret, the movie. Went on Oprah.

[01:11:04] Self-help guru who had a hand in killing three people. I wouldn't say murder because he didn't mean to do it. That and you're pronouncing it wrong. Okay. It's not murder. It's MIA. MIA. MIA. MIA. So he goes to prison for two years for his hand in their deaths. Yes.

[01:11:35] Which is clearly negligence. Yes. He had, in my opinion, kind of broken down these people mentally.

[01:12:14] Mm-hmm. What upset me is they do have footage of him giving a cell, you know, obviously his audience now has shrunk. Yes. Because he did. Some people died under his care. So he's not as big as he was before at that point. I don't know how big he got after prison.

[01:12:37] But he, in my opinion, uses the tragedy to sell more. Yes. He talks about his, how would you phrase it? How he's overcome this tragedy? I think the way that he put it was, and this is my interpretation of his conversations about the subject.

[01:13:07] I'm not saying he directly said this, but this is my interpretation for legal reasons. Anyway, the way that it seemed to me was when he was explaining the situation was he did admit responsibility for what happened. But his, the way that he twists that knife was, he was like, I accept the responsibility for

[01:13:37] what I have done. But, but, oh, the one, he blames, he still kind of blames the actual people for being adults and not, you know, leaving the situation, leaving the situation with their own ability.

[01:14:01] And the way that he justifies some of it is by saying, well, I can crawl into a hole and never do anything ever again, or I can turn this into a positive thing and take another look at how I do things and get something positive out of the situation. But he's doing everything the exact same way. Basically. He's basically polishing a turd. That's what he's doing.

[01:14:31] There's more. Because he goes back into self-help. He goes back to, I read, he had a website with his wife. He had a podcast, social media. He was charging $2,500 for 90 minute sessions. Yeah. That's how much I charge. I would know. We're in the wrong business, bro. You're in the wrong business. I'm already there. I'm helping people.

[01:14:55] But, you know, it just, and the fact that he uses this tragedy, because he's in like, I don't know if you want to call them meetings or seminars. Seminars is probably a better word. He's in these seminars talking about this tragedy. Like, I've turned it around. I've reshaped my life. Look at what I did. You know, look at what I did. And, you know, you can change your life around too. Yeah.

[01:15:20] Like, I'm not, I don't feel good with him using this tragedy to sell more. You know what it's like? You know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of two different things. And I apologize for interrupting. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's fine because it reminds me of another person. But let's see if it matches up. You go. Okay. The first thing that it kind of reminds me of is when, when he's talking about when he

[01:15:47] went to jail and all this other stuff, it was the low point of his life and he lost all his money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like when you listen to like, uh, like an alcoholic person, when they got into a car accident and you know, the person was killed or whatever. And then you're like, oh my God, this changed my entire life. But then I got back in and you know, I got up by no whole bootstraps and all that other BS. That's what that reminds me of.

[01:16:15] Like somehow I have to turn this into a positive thing. Yeah. Like somebody is fucking dead. Somebody is no longer on this planet anymore. Because of your choices. Exactly. I feel like I would have been better with things if he had said, look, I take my responsibility. Left out the butt part. It's the butt part for me that kills it. It's all about the butt. But, but they were adults, but it's on them. And I can't believe they came after me because they were adults. Yeah.

[01:16:44] You have an accepted responsibility then. The way that he went about like talking to. He was like, they made a choice to be there. Yeah. Okay. But they didn't make the choice to die. Yeah. They went there to fix whatever issue they had in their life. But when, when he prioritized the incident as just another thing to overcome. Yeah. In his new scenario of the pyramid scheme or whatever the hell it is. Mm-hmm.

[01:17:12] It also reminded me of those psychics that would go into like the seminars and they would be very vague about everything. And they would say, oh, did somebody pass away named Barbara? And oh yeah, I passed away. Oh, it was my great aunt or whatever. And then he would keep on doing the generalizations until they, they're like, oh my God, he really is. That's the way that he was treating these situations.

[01:17:42] And briefly they showed one lady who was trying to argue with him. Yeah. And I was like, you go lady. But then he just. Twist it. He just. He just twisted it around. He. Spoiler alert. He did pass away. He did have a way of twisting language. And I mean, and he would turn it into, well, you came here to, to get something changed.

[01:18:06] Are you going to listen or are you just going to keep on making comments and be closed off to what, why are you really here? See, he just automatically just twisted it. Like you came to me. I didn't come to you. So why are you here? Do you want to listen to what I'm saying? Yet again, not being held, not holding himself accountable. Exactly. Just completely dodging it and pushing it right back onto the other person.

[01:18:31] And that's that whole, like, you know, being like, they don't want to get locked into specifics because then they get cornered. But then if you like, it's all vague bullshit. Oh, if you want to change your life, go out and do it. Do what? I understand that there's like, like a couple of hundred people in this crowd and you have to remain vague and push a very optimistic view on life.

[01:19:00] But if the person that is coming there is looking for a specific thing and if you're being vague and generalistic and all this other crap, they're just going to feel good about something, but they're not actually going to be able to do anything. Like, do you want to help these people or not? I would change my tone completely if he was like one-on-one really trying to help people. Yeah. Like taking notes.

[01:19:30] Okay, this is what's going on. Okay, let's give you a step program and we'll go ahead, check back with me at the end of the month and we'll see how these things worked out for you. Yeah. And then we can go ahead and reevaluate. That I could be more on his head. That and he stopped saying the but. Exactly. And stopped whining about it. Why? You know, because he sounded a little bit whiny and I don't know. They were adults. Now, you know, I get you're angry. You went to prison. I get that you did not mean for these people to die.

[01:20:00] I understand that. I think his ego got too big and he thought for one second that he was like sort of a God among men and he got brought back down to earth. The thing is like when I think of self-help, it's like a one-on-one thing because there's a couple hundred people in that audience. Every one of their problems is completely different. Yes. You can't be vague about that. You have to be one-on-one.

[01:20:29] Not everything is going to work out for you. I agree with you. I feel like real self-help. Yeah. Like we, I don't have anything against self-help. No. I don't. I've had to seek help for things. That's why I'm here. You are my self-help. I am. But, you know, you're right. Real self-help happens usually in a more one-on-one situation. Yeah. Like, you know, go get a therapist. Exactly.

[01:20:54] Go get like, or even a small group of like same people going through the same thing. Yeah. Something. What, what are those groups? Uh, they're like AA and stuff like that. Yeah. Those types of groups. Like, yes, do that. Yeah. Absolutely do that. But those groups, you have accountability. You have someone, how is you doing? How is your day going? And you also have like a sponsor. I'm like, how did you think, you know, what do you think you need help on or help with this week? Yeah.

[01:21:23] What is the next step for you and how can we help you get there? You know, how can we reframe, you know, maybe some of the, the choices you've made and we'll check again next week. You're right. If he would have done more of that instead of, Hey, come to the event, this event, you're going to have a breakthrough and then you can pay me thousands of dollars to come to the next one. That's not it for me. Yeah. That's not self-help. You're selling an idea. That's it. Yeah. You're selling the idea of a breakthrough. Yeah.

[01:21:53] That's it. But there's no actual breakthrough. But even if you were to use the event to create a list of people that you can call back and go personally through their situations, I still wouldn't be against it. Yeah. As long as they are okay with having that information and getting that phone call like next week or whatever. Like when they have the event, like, Hey, we're going to pass around a sheet.

[01:22:19] You put down your name if you want to, and we can have a one-on-one and go through your individual problems. Well, right now we're going to explain the process. Yeah. This whole event is about the process and what you can expect. And who knows? Maybe he did have a few one-on-ones that were like that, but that wasn't communicated as well in the documentary. So if he did that, okay. Yeah. But that wasn't shown as a primary.

[01:22:45] The, the, the evidence from the documentary was that he was always selling even the one-on-one conversations he had with people. Great. But have you signed up for the next event? Exactly. Great. But have you signed up to the next event? Maybe he started out wanting. So let's say he did start out wanting to help people. Let's say that was the original idea. Perhaps I think he got too big, too quickly. The money machine that he needed to have to keep the machine going, like it just got out

[01:23:14] of hand and he couldn't keep up with the one-on-one and actual self-help to be able to accomplish it because now he had multi-million dollar business that relied on him to always be selling. But you know, this also reminds me of like the Clio thing where that. There were Clio and a little bit of a Walter Mercado's situation.

[01:23:39] But it's like when Clio got too big, they started bringing all these other people to Ansel Farms and they weren't doing the same type of, you know, stuff that she was doing and it was done in a completely different way and it was very lackluster and it didn't have any care to it. That's the problem. If you are coming to somebody for help, then you need to be able to say, we will take care of you.

[01:24:07] We will take time out of our day to listen to you. And that's the most important part of this sentence was to listen to you, not try to sell you the next thing, but actually listen to you because helping somebody is an individual experience, not a mass market experience. It does not help everybody when you say one thing.

[01:24:36] In Clio's situation. And then Walter Mercado also got too big, brought in people and the whole money machine got away from him as well. But the difference between those two and this one is those two tried to stop it. Once they figured out what was happening, they tried to reel it back in. They just were unable to in certain situations, but at least they tried. So I'm more on their side than I am on this guy's side. This guy just like, let's keep going. Let's do it. Sell, sell, sell. Yeah.

[01:25:05] Let's go into a fucking sweat lodge in the middle of nowhere and just be just unskilled assholes. As long as that paycheck clears, then hooray. And that's, that's what pisses me off the most about this. And the fact that I think the justice system failed because you have, whether or not you hold 100% responsibility or not, those three people still passed away under your watch and

[01:25:31] 19 other people, 19, 20, 22, whatever got, were injured. This isn't like one or people, one or two people got dehydrated at a rock concert. Like those people could have died if they would have stayed there. Who knows? Two minutes more, five minutes more. How long was it going to take to have more fatalities? There has to be, if he would have walked, if he would have got out of jail and said, you know what? I screwed up horribly.

[01:26:00] I regret everything that I did. I'm just going to do one-on-ones from now on. And I'm really going to truly try to help people. Then I would have nothing wrong to say about it. He would still be responsible for those deaths, but at least we know he learned the price of getting that big. But instead he turned around and he went right back to what he knew made money.

[01:26:30] So in my interpretation of this guy, I have nothing nice to say about him. If he would have like walked out of jail and said, you know what? I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to go to a new program. I'm going to contact some other people. I'm going to help people on an individual basis. I'm going to be like a public figure to help people. And we're going to do things the right way. I would have no problem with that.

[01:26:59] But he just, just. So I'm going to tell you the two people he reminds me of. His behavior after getting out of prison. He reminds me of OJ when OJ was reportedly at the horror con signing autographs. Yeah. He's back. He's back doing what he's doing using the tragedy in his, his way. He also reminds me a little bit of Joel Olsteen. Oh yeah.

[01:27:29] Good talker. Yeah. Good talker. But for profit, you know, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't make a living. No. That's not what I'm saying. But I do feel that if you were truly trying to help someone.

[01:27:48] And you were, you wanted to help as many people as you could charging people more, you know, than a hundred grand in services like over a year for some memberships. Like, I don't know. I feel like that's a little much. Don't you think? You know, like, and I'm not saying don't make a living. No. You need to make a living. You know what? When, when you're, when you're in jail, start picking up some books.

[01:28:14] When you come out, go get a, like a therapist license, go get registered and start helping people get your own. Eventually get your own office, your own practice and help people charge them $50 an hour or a hundred dollars an hour. Their insurance is going to pay for it anyway, but you're going to get paid and you're going to be able to help people individually every single day. You know, eight to 10 people a day. And like I said, maybe his motivations at the beginning was to help people. Yeah.

[01:28:41] But he got big fast and I don't think he was personally equipped to handle such a grave responsibility. But like you have to be able to understand, especially when your currency is human life, whether it's. I don't think he realized it. Whether it's the physical life or the person's mental abilities to deal with things.

[01:29:09] I honestly don't think he realized the weight of responsibility that he had. I mean, they, they talked about how he got into it, which we didn't even speak about was the fact he went to go see Tony Robbins. And he was like, it was like a rock concert. That's what I want to do. It's not fun and games, bro. Yeah. Like you're messing with people's lives at this point. That's a huge responsibility. Huge. Huge.

[01:29:35] Like when you're talking to somebody and they're like, you know, sharing like, oh, like for example, like I used to have this all the time. You know, a friend of mine, she would come over and be like, oh my God, my boyfriend this and my boyfriend that and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The next thing that comes out of your mouth to her, if it's like, oh, I just break up with him. And then she breaks up with him. You kind of have a little bit of a, I mean, she has a brain. Yeah. But you pushed her in that direction. Yeah.

[01:30:04] There is a slight responsibility for that. When things escalate and you're dealing with people's whole lives and they're on the couch, like spilling their guts out to you about relationships and marriage and the bank and this and that and all this other stuff, the responsibilities escalate. When you take somebody out of their natural habitat and you put them in a fucking tent, then you have all the responsibility.

[01:30:30] Well, who was that girl who told that guy, go ahead and kill yourself via text? And she even went to, didn't she go, they took her to court? Yeah. Did she go to prison? Did they lock her up too? I'm not even sure. You know, there you go. Like, he's like, I kind of feel like I want to, you know, un, was unalive myself is a new term they're using nowadays. But, you know, and she was like, go ahead and do it. Let me help you along. You know, no, no.

[01:30:57] She, you know, and she was like, it's just texting. No, you had some responsibility there. I mean, these are people's lives. And you don't know how fragile people are. When you don't know what happened to them, they, to them that day, you don't know what's been happening to them. You don't know where their mental state is at. So you have to be very careful. And unfortunately, these people were going to him with issues, with problems.

[01:31:26] They were, I mean, one guy even said, I kind of looked at him like a god. That tells you right there how brainwashed they were to see him as an authority figure and for him to use that. And I don't want to say that he didn't care. Like, you know, I don't think he wanted to kill people. No. That was not. He just. He was careless. He was careless. That's the perfect word. He was careless. And that came with consequences.

[01:31:54] But I think that there should have been somebody there, even if he didn't have the ability to gauge his responsibility, there should have been somebody there to have been like, you know what? We need to bring some people on and we need to fix this. Well, I will give you an example. Like, I'm not going to name the organization, but I volunteer with a few organizations.

[01:32:20] There was one that was holding an event and I was assigned door opener. Aw. Yeah, I know. Cute. And there were these older people there waiting in line. Yeah. And one was obviously having trouble standing. Yeah. I broke protocol and left the, my whole purpose during that event was to open and close the door. Yeah. Open and close the door. These people are more than capable of opening and closing the door. Yeah. It was just to make it look fancy. Yeah.

[01:32:50] I broke protocol, left my spot to go get this elderly couple, a couple chairs. Yeah. They were having trouble standing. They didn't want to get out of line because if you get out of line, you have to make the line again. And they were pretty upfront in the line. So they were going to be some of the first people to be let in. I went and got them a couple chairs and I got ripped a new one for that, which I promptly said, okay, I'm done with this event. I'm out. I just left. Yeah.

[01:33:19] But I wasn't the only one seeing this couple about to fall. There were at least 20 other people opening because it was a huge venue opening, closing doors for people. And anybody could have gotten them chairs. No one did. What would have happened if this elderly couple fell and one of them broke a hip? Yeah. Or worse. More. Or worse. Yeah.

[01:33:48] Bumped their head or something on concrete. You know, that's. I felt the responsibility as working because I was working the event. I needed to take care of them and I did. Yeah. Anybody could have done that. And the fact that nobody else did. Yeah. And they had the nerve to come yell at me for it. I don't think so. Yeah. I haven't worked another event for that, that organization since. Well, I mean, if you're going to be inhumane. It's just not what I'm about. Yeah.

[01:34:19] Simple kindness. Someone comes up to you at your event and says, these people are passing out. People are vomiting. Someone looks half dead. We need to do something. You're like, oh, they'll be fine. I'm sorry. That's what I'm saying. Then it's on you. You told him. Part of me almost wishes they would have gone after some of the other people that were working. They should have. There was like four or five people standing outside that tent. Any one of them could have rang the bell. Anybody.

[01:34:46] Just like anybody could have gotten chairs for that elderly couple at my event. Anybody. Including the bosses that were walking around watching the elderly couple. Yeah. You know what? I want to pull that latch up and start pulling people out of that thing. Like, oh, you're going to get me fired? Well, at least nobody's going to die. I'm pretty sure if I had been there, I would have pushed open through it. Yeah. It's bullshit. That's what I'm saying.

[01:35:15] Like, there was no regard for people's safety. That's why the responsibility lands right on him. Because if everybody was just following what he said, then he's responsible. If there was another person, like a safety person that was there, it was specifically just for safety.

[01:36:03] Mm-hmm. You're responsible. You're responsible.

[01:36:25] So, there is no ifs, ands, or buts. Something comes out of your fucking mouth. When I go to work, and if I curse out the guy next to me, I'm fully expecting to not be employed tomorrow. Yeah. There are consequences for what comes out of your mouth. But they don't want to be responsible for nothing. Oh, no. It was somebody else's fault.

[01:36:52] It was the head, whoever, or the, you know, something else happened, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It would be different if they were in that tent, sweating it out, and like an airplane engine came out of the sky and landed on them. Then it's not his responsibility. But, like, eventually, you're going to have to peel back all that bullshit and go, you know what? It's my fault. I take responsibility for it, and I need to make some serious changes.

[01:37:20] But that's the exact opposite of what he did. So, F him. Right in the face. I think it was an unfortunate event. I really, a deep downside, I know he didn't want the people to pass away or die in his care. Like, I understand that. I think he was negligent. I think his fame and everything got to his head, and he thought he could push people. You know? And there's a limit. There's a limit.

[01:37:50] There's a limit. And each individual person has a different limit. You know? It's not the same for everybody. And that's what I'm saying. If it goes to. If he would have gone one-on-one. Then. Yeah. He would realize that each person has their limit. If everybody had the same limit, then there would be 23 dead bodies in there. Not three dead bodies and 19 people injured. Everybody has a different limit. When you're doing certain things, you can only go up to a certain capacity,

[01:38:19] and then everything starts to fail. And those people were near that limit because they were having organ failure. So they were going to be dying next. So what in his brain was like, oh, they'll be fine. Like, you set up safety restrictions. You do some testing beforehand. Maybe some other individuals will do the sweat lodge test. You know? You set up the temperatures. You have a safety person there. You put an ambulance there. You know?

[01:38:48] You get extra water and stuff like that for people to drink. Mm-hmm. You know? Things like that. You know? Like some pedialyte or whatever to get the electrolytes. Whatever. All that bullshit. But none of that was there. It was just four other guys sitting outside that tent waiting for that damn flap to open. It was bullshit. It was ridiculous. And it was incompetent. You know? For these people to take all those people's lives and risk it over some bullshit.

[01:39:16] And it was that third time that lady took that damn thing? So she went in there two other times prior and almost died. Well, who knows? Maybe the temperature was at a more realistic level. And the more events he did, the more kind of like fooling himself he got. And he was like, make it hotter. Make it hotter. There should have been somebody, but it was like, okay, this is too much. Cut it. At this time, we're just spitballing. You know?

[01:39:46] We don't have the facts of all of his spiritual warrior retreats. Yeah. Because they weren't documenting every one of them. No. But it's really unfortunate. And he has passed away. He passed away. They didn't really say why. He passed away at 67 in January of 2025. Word.

[01:40:16] I think it was a good documentary. I think it was a good lesson for everybody. It was very frustrating. It was very frustrating. He did go to prison for the three homicides for two years. As we mentioned, there was the other people who suffered severe injuries didn't go after him criminally.

[01:40:43] But they did go after him in a civil suit. And there was a $3 million global settlement that was split among the families of the deceased victims and the injured survivors. He didn't have to sell his house and all that bullshit? Yeah. He didn't have a lot of money.

[01:41:05] He was in debt, he said, when he came out of prison in debt is, I believe, what he said. And all of that is very unfortunate. You know, because I, as I said, we don't really know him. Maybe he did want to do good at first. And he just got carried away with the power, the fame, and the money. It happens to the best of us.

[01:41:34] And unfortunately, in this story, it did have some bad consequences and people died. Would you recommend the documentary? Yes. And I would label it what not to do. What not to do. I think it was a very good documentary. I do suggest a viewing. And again, I would like to reiterate, we're not against self-help. No.

[01:42:02] In fact, this is the start of my new self-help book that I will be putting out soon called Go F Yourself. No, but really, if you need help, go find the appropriate self-help. By all means. You know, sometimes the TV gurus aren't the best place to start. Find a therapist. Find a support group is what the word I was saying. Find a good support group. Well, you know what? That is, you know, get real self-help. You know, go do that.

[01:42:32] That's not the self-help we're against. You know? Yeah. What I mean, what I would recommend, if you're employed, call your insurance company and see if you can go see a professional. You can go through your insurance company. Most insurance companies will cover something like that. They'll give you like a certain amount of visits that will be under your, you know, healthcare, depending on what you have. If not, go to like an actual self-help group.

[01:43:01] You know, whoever's anonymous or whatever, you go to the meetings, go seek help. If you want to just talk to somebody, there's like phone services with therapists and stuff like that. There's phone services. You get a hundred thousand dollars not to listen to you. As soon as they ask for like a membership or whatever, just walk.

[01:43:31] They're not there for you. They're there for their paycheck. Go and like when you say something, wait for their response that they're actually processing what you're saying. If they don't make eye contact with you, if they don't look at you, if they don't respond to what you're saying, just freaking leave. Because they're wasting your time and all you're going to do is get frustrated and then you're going to blame the entire like self-help thing on some bad apples.

[01:43:57] Like, and if you don't want to go through all that, like as much as I don't like the, like some people feel comfortable with their friends in order to be able to dispense certain information. But honestly, what's really good is to find a neutral person who has nothing invested in yay or nay, negative or positive.

[01:44:21] Like they could sit down and actually listen to you without any judgment, without any prior like incidences on your record. They listen to your problem at hand right now. Not all the extra shit that you've done before, you know, not prejudging you with some other crap that happened a long time ago. A neutral playing ground. You know, if you're having an issue with a person, then have a third person there to mediate.

[01:44:48] But if you even think there's a possibility that you might need some help, go talk to somebody right now. Don't wait. Don't put it off because a snowball will turn into an avalanche before you know it. Make the, take the day off of work if you have to. And, you know, you have to be able to help yourself. And find true help. Exactly.

[01:45:17] Because there are some people out there that I know personally that will help everybody else around them. And while their life is still crumbling, you have to be able to take time out and help yourself also. You have to be able to be strong enough to help yourself and then you can go help other people. But if your life is falling apart and you're helping everybody else around you, you're not going to be any good to anybody after a while. So take time out of your day and help yourself.

[01:45:45] Put on your air mask before you put on your neighbors. Exactly. Like they say on the planes. Exactly. You know, you have a responsibility to yourself to make sure that you are okay first. Then you help other people. But for these guys that just sit around and wave their hands around in big crowds and they're all swaying back and forth and all that good stuff. You know what? That's feel good garbage.

[01:46:09] When it comes down to your actual day, your actual personality, your actual family interactions, that is a personal thing one-on-one. Everybody is different on how they interact with people and how they interact with their environment. So if you think you need any kind of help, reach out and get help right now. Don't wait. That's my PSA. There you go.

[01:46:39] But yeah, I just felt it was important to reiterate because we were kind of on the self-help gurus down on. Let's just say self-help gurus. But yeah, self-help, like maybe a book is good. Sometimes books are good. They kind of lead you in the direction of what type of therapist you might need. You know, give you different ways of thinking. And that's fine. That's good for you. Yeah. You know, go talk to a therapist, support groups, your friends if you need to. Like good friends.

[01:47:09] You know what? Also, go talk to your doctor and then he can actually like recommend to you. That too. Another doctor or somebody who's in the network or whatever. But I would be wary of the self-help, you know. Make sure they have a fucking license. Media stuff. Make sure that the company that they're working for has a license. Like some guy that's just spewing bullshit on TV or online to make you feel better isn't going to do anything.

[01:47:35] Sweat Lodge wasn't going to help me with issues that I went to go talk to a therapist for. It might help me detox from all the stuff that I've been drinking. But other than that. But seven rounds? I mean. How long time-wise were they in there? No, you go eight. If you don't do eight, then you're just not sweating enough. But you know. So I just felt it was important to reiterate that. If you need help, get the proper help that you need.

[01:48:05] Proper. Keyword. Proper. Yes. Make sure they're licensed. License. If they don't have a license, don't be there. Stop wasting your time. Don't talk. And if it's something that's going to be detrimental to your life, make sure it's a professional. Don't go to some Yahoo. Yeah, but even some licensed people. Because let me tell you, I went to a couple before I found the one that helped me. Yeah. Who all they wanted to do were vision boards. Oh, God, no.

[01:48:35] No, God, no. I'm like, that's not going to help me with my issue. Thank you. Goodbye. And don't be worried to go to the next therapist. Well, and that's why when you do those call-in ones, if you don't like the person, just get somebody else. Just go to the next one. Get somebody who you're comfortable with. Yeah. Find the right person for you that's going to give you the proper help you need. That's it. Exactly.

[01:49:00] But like this, waving your hands around in a crowd and giving people tens of millions of dollars and also- Getting your head shaved. Yeah, no, come on, man. Vision quests, yeah. Come on, man. And like, you know, I don't know how you're listening to us at the moment. And I've been adjacent to that because I've gone to some yoga stuff that I thought was just plain yoga. Yeah. It was not. Right, it leads into something else. Yeah, they were trying to lead it into something else and that was the first and only time I went because, you know, I'm not down for that life.

[01:49:30] That's why I don't stretch. You don't stretch? Yeah. But like- But, you know, don't be afraid to leave. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. I don't know how or where or when you're listening to this, but if you need help, get help. Get the right type of help and don't be afraid to reach out because little things become big things if you don't solve those problems. So do what you can.

[01:50:00] Watch this documentary. Hopefully it will not inspire you to make a cult because that would be bad. And I will say bad, whoever your name is. Bad. Bad. Big Daddy Wilson says bad. Don't do it. And eat lots of spaghetti from a monster. Ramen. Ramen. All right. So I guess with that, we bid you adieu. Oh, not adieu. That's got to hurt. Adieu. Oh, my God.

[01:50:31] Terrible. Go watch the documentary. I watched it on Prime. I'm not sure where Wilson watched it. Oh, I watched it on Apple TV. As always, we will share the trailer on our Facebook and on our YouTube channel, which we're trying to slowly build. Have patience. Have patience. Have patience. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Oh, my God. We are also reachable on Facebook if you need to send this message. Don't send me a message. You can send me emails. We have a website.

[01:51:00] All the links are on our Facebook page. Don't send me a message. Send them to me. Send them to Daphne. I will answer. I will not respond. I will tell you where to go and how to get there. Our resident grumpy guru over here does not want to hear from you. Peace and love. Peace and love. But I'm always here. So with that, we bid you adieu and we'll go watch some documentaries. Have some fun and eat some pizza. All right. Eat a bagel and cream cheese.

[01:51:30] Oh, yeah. I would say, come on now. Come on. You can do this. Can't you? Come on.

[01:52:00] You can stick it out. You know, I would encourage them. Thank you so much for listening to Get Docked. Make sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you're listening to so you never miss a new episode. Don't forget to say hi on Facebook at Get Docked. We post a lot of updates, random thoughts, and probably way too many memes. Way too many memes?

[01:52:29] That sounds like fun. But also, if you got a documentary recommendation or you just want to say hi, email us at get dockedpodcast at gmail.com. We'd love to hear what you have to say. Until next time, thanks for tuning in with Get Docked.